http://www.auburn-doesnt-need-another-church.com/
I think I threw up a little bit when I saw this.
BTW Andy Stanley, just what is the “churchy church” stuff that you need to get away from?
Oh, and thanks Jed for posting this on your blog.
January 27, 2008
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I wish I would have taken greater heed to your reaction. I thought you were just being colorful. However, I’ve just puked all over my brand new laptop that I got for grad school. It was very colorful.
So is that church.
Did you see the video?
Good Lord.
Hold fast brother… humble and contrite.
I know it’s hard.
best,
Nicholas.
Comment by N.M. Owen — January 27, 2008 @ 8:37 pm
what makes you feel this way? why did this make you wanna throw up?
Comment by DP — January 28, 2008 @ 5:36 pm
Nicholas,
I hadn’t actually watched the other video until I read your post. Thanks…. I guess
DP,
There are a number of things that bother me about this video.
First, it’s the understanding of “church” that this video promotes. The fact that they want to strip away the “churchiness” is a warning sign. They’re not promoting church, they’re promoting a club.
Second, the whole idea that there needs to be a church that is attractive to the world… as if the world is the measuring stick. Of course, they look exactly like the world.
Third, the view that they have what humanity needs, as opposed to the other 150 churches in the area.
Fourth, the whole satellite church thing is a bad idea.
There’s probably more, but I’d have to watch the video again to refresh my memory… and I just finished dinner. Do you think I’m way off base?
Blessings,
Brian
Comment by brianmclain — January 28, 2008 @ 7:17 pm
I find it very interesting that you would “puke” on a church model that is trying to reach the overwhelming majority of people who do not feel wlecomed by Christianity or who are not growing spiritually in their local church. A local church should primarily shine a light on Christ and secondarily provide fellowship and community for believers. North Point Community Church and their partners do a better job with this than most churched in the country. They have over 15,000 adults meeting in small groups! Have you ever listened to Andy Stanley?
If you don’t like big churches ar contemporary worship, don’t go. If you want to critically evaluate the teaching, definitely do so. I am amazed that you would criticize a church for creating specific environments for children, singles, etc. (2nd video) because Andy speaks negatively of “churchy” stuff. It is the churchy stuff that causes so many of our churches to be stale and is probably why most Christians don’t look like Christians should to others.
Get a clue brother. Its about leading people to Christ and faciliting an authentic relationship with our hevanly father…not picking apart a church that is trying to reach the 65% that for some reason, are not attending the 150 churches you mentioned.
Kelly
Comment by Kelly — January 29, 2008 @ 10:09 am
Kelly,
You said, “A local church should primarily shine a light on Christ…”
Really? I thought the purpose of a local church was to come together as the local body of Christ to worship God. This is really the core difference of what you and I believe about church. Church is not about reaching lost people. Church is about worship. And worship is not about stripping away the “churchiness” and replacing it with awesome music that sounds like today’s popular music, stripping away the preaching of the Word and replacing it with hip dialogue, stripping away the sacraments and replacing them with a Starbucks in the foyer.
There might truly be a need for a new church in Auburn – I didn’t say there wasn’t. But I’ve been to Auburn and there are plenty of North Pointe style churches in the area. The only thing Auburn Church will succeed in is drawing people away from their current church because NorthPointe has the money and resources to pull off being hipper, cooler, and more relevant than every other church in the area. The guy in the video said best, “He didn’t like any of the churches in the area because they didn’t meet his needs,” and that’s what Auburn Church is aiming to do – meet people’s needs. That’s what makes me want to puke. Church is not about meeting needs!!! That guy does not want to worship God, he wants to listen to cool music, feel good about himself, and network. He wants a church where he can where comfortable clothes, hang out with other people JUST LIKE HIM, and have free day care.
The only thing Auburn Church will succeed in is creating a worldly enviroment without all the worldly hazards…. and they will make no impact on the community…. just like every other church like them.
Brian
Comment by brianmclain — January 29, 2008 @ 5:34 pm
Hey, buddy. You are obviously on a little roll, here. I’m hearing ya (well, reading ya) that this guy wants a good time/feel good atmosphere.
But, the church IS about meeting needs. As a church–not brick and mortar–but as a body, we should be meeting needs. (Caring for the widows, the poor, the sick, the lonely, the lost, the….) Needs are needs, not desires. We don’t need cool music, but I like it. We don’t need fresh coffee on Sunday mornings, but sometimes, I partake. We don’t need air conditioning, but, good grief, man, with the global warming around here–I’m grateful for it!
Oh, man. I’m definitely going the bad place for the bad people with no coffee and no A/C.
Comment by Melissa Hale — January 29, 2008 @ 8:38 pm
Hey Melissa,
I understand what you’re saying… I agree, church as the body of Christ is supposed to meet the needs of the community. But I’m talking about that “Christian” who doesn’t go to church because they don’t meet his “needs.” Good coffee and cold A/C are not really the point – those things are great. If NorthPointe is starting a new church so that they can make church more hip, comfortable and attractive by worldly standards, then they’re wrong. And this is what they’re doing. The needs that need to be met are out in the world. Church is where the Christian goes every Lord’s Day to renew covenant with God, to feed upon His Word, to be strengthened and renewed, to confess sins and be reminded of their forgiveness, to be reminded in all their senses that Christ is victorious, and then to go out from there and meet the needs of the community. When change happens in the community, then the community wants to come to church and experience something better, something beautiful. Instead, churches like Auburn seem to want to lower the church to worldly standards, make it attractive to the world, and then make sure they return every week because they’re getting something out of it. They may have a large number of members – hey, who wouldn’t? – but they’ll have no impact on the community. As you know, there’s plenty of megachurches out there that boast about big numbers, but they have no impact on their community.
Comment by brianmclain — January 29, 2008 @ 11:27 pm
I’m going to try not and preach to one side or the other but, I know what NorthPoint and its leadership has done for me and those around me. I know church isn’t supposed to me my needs BUT I need to worship in order to keep a right alignment with my Creator. When I worship I come back to a place where I remember Who IS in charge. Auburn Church and NorthPoint type churches provide an atmosphere of relevant worship music which resonates with my heart and life. However I will say this; In Acts 5, Luke is telling about the early church getting off the ground and raising a stir in the community. The ruler at that time says that if this is not of God it will fail BUT if it is from God you will not be able to stop it, it would be like fighting God Himself. So my thought is give it some time and see. I will close in saying this, WE ARE THE CHURCH, you, me and any other Christian out there and I believe we are called to build one another up and not tear each other down. If someone has thoughts or opinions on how to make a worship service better or how to further the Kingdom then by all means come to a table and discuss them to view the idea from both sides. I believe God has placed the “C”hurch here to do 3 things: as a body of believers and individually 1.) love the Lord with everything that you have and are 2.) Love your neighbor as much as you do yourself and 3.) go and make disciples. If you and churches have these three in the right order then I believe God is happy with His children. Arguing over how to DO church doesn’t. Love Ya’ll!
P Duffy
Comment by P Duffy — March 25, 2008 @ 10:56 pm
P Duffy,
Thanks for your reply. I understand where you’re coming from. And for the record, I have nothing against the body of believers that attend NorthPointe. In fact, I have nothing against Andy Stanley or any of the other leaders. First and foremost I recognize that they are my brothers and sisters in Christ. That said, though, I do have a problem with the philosophy of the church, and I see no problem with bringing it up for discussion… in a sense, this is bringing it to the table. Initially, my post was not even about the style of worship… it was mainly about the video and the attractiveness comment. Of course, I agree that the church should be attractive, I just disagree that the world is the standard of attractiveness. Sometimes I struggle with having too strong an opinion and whether I should share it on this blog. Truthfully, I should probably just not blog at all – it takes too much time. On the other hand, though, I see a direct link between the church’s inablitily to impact our culture and the brand of “church” that is being churned out at an alarming rate by churches like NorthPointe. Maybe I’m wrong… maybe not. I think discussing and, yes, even arguing about it can be a good thing… as long as everyone involved in the discussion maintains civility and love – recognizing each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. Unfortunately, when it comes to blogging, there is too much room for misinterpretation, hurt feelings, etc.
Brian
Comment by brianmclain — March 27, 2008 @ 3:02 pm
BrianMcClain,
I can appreciate your desire to want to open the floor for discussion on this topic – the topic of churches – like North Point (not “NorthPointe”) – creating “worldly environments” as you call it, because it’s a common misconception for those that have never attended. To say Auburn Church is “worldly” is like saying Sports Illustrated’s claim that “Bama’s Back” (in 2007) was a true statement (Had to throw that in there for my fellow Auburn brethren. War Eagle, baby!!! / Auburn ‘93). But for argument sake, let’s explore it a little bit.
I agree that North Point (and its strategic partners, like Auburn Church) reside in the same world we all live in – Earth, the third planet from the Sun. That, my brother, we can agree on. However, that’s the only “worldly” aspect of Auburn Church. Does Auburn Church and other North Point Ministry campuses use relevant content to attract Christians and, more importantly non-Christians, whose hearts are being pursued by the Holy Spirit? Absolutely!
Now I must admit… I would find it very difficult to believe if you told me you have attended Auburn Church, North Point Community Church, or the like. If you had, then I’m certain you would have a better understanding of what Auburn Church is all about. Rather than speculate what Auburn Church IS, let’s quickly examine its stated mission, strategy, and beliefs.
MISSION: Auburn Church’s mission is “to lead people into a growing relationship with Jesus Christ.”
That doesn’t seem so “worldly” but let’s continue… You can’t honestly tell me that God cares if we are wearing jeans, a coat and tie, or an AUBIE suit, when we worship Him, can you? He wants a personal relationship with us and whether we are laying in a hospital bed recovering from a car accident, or teeing off on number 1 as the sun breaks the horizon…does it really matter?
STRATEGY: Auburn Church wants “to create environments where people are encouraged and equipped to pursue intimacy with God, community with insiders, and influence with outsiders.”
Let’s see…”Intimacy with God…ok so far. Now, “community with insiders, and influence with outsiders.” Hmmm, not completely sure what that means but on the surface, it sounds reasonable. After all, shouldn’t all Christians want to have a loving influence on the people around them and the people that are most important to them in their lives? Is it a bad thing if a church has created a safe and inviting environment to which Christians can invite their unchurched or unbelieving friends? Is it wrong for Auburn Church attendees to have the hope that the same Holy Spirit that once attracted them and continues to dwell within them might also find a home within another unbelieving heart – particularly a close, personal friend of theirs? Isn’t that what our Heavenly Father desires for all of us…to put our faith and trust in His son, Jesus Christ, so that we can live in paradise, in worship with Him, for eternity? Look, Auburn Church isn’t claiming the title “WE PROVIDE THE ONLY WAY TO DO CHURCH”. It’s simply offering an alternative to (my words) the boring, unchanging, unimaginative, difficult to understand, traditional church service. Oh, and did I mention Auburn Church has an incredible Small Group (Bible Study) methodology where individuals can sit in circles, not rows, and discuss God’s relevance in their lives? (Not enough time to get into this one, but maybe later.) If you are one the enjoys the B, U, U, DTU, T, CS type of church…then by all means, PLEASE go and worship the same God I am worshiping at Auburn Church or North Point, or the like. Go their knowing that in my heart I can’t wait to see you in Heaven and know that your God loves you in your desired environment just as He loves me in the environment I’ve chosen to worship Him.
BELIEFS:
About the Scriptures
We (Auburn Church) believe the entire Bible is the inspired Word of God and that men were moved by the Spirit of God to write the very words of Scripture. Therefore, we believe the Bible is without error.
Brian, I know that as a Christian, you believe this to be true.
About God
We (Auburn Church) believe in one God who exists in three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We believe that Jesus Christ is the second member of the Trinity (the Son of God) who became flesh to reveal God to man and to become the Savior of the lost world.
Ditto to my last statement.
About Mankind
We (Auburn Church) believe that mankind was created in the image of God to have fellowship with Him but became alienated in that relationship through sinful disobedience. As a result, man is incapable of regaining a right relationship with God through his own effort alone.
Auburn Church didn’t say it first. The Bible did.
About Salvation
We (Auburn Church) believe that the blood of Jesus Christ, shed on the cross, provides the sole basis for the forgiveness of sin. Therefore, salvation occurs only when people place their faith in the death and resurrection of Christ as sufficient payment for their sin.
As Christians, we all believe this.
About the Christian Life
We (Auburn Church) believe that every Christian should live for Christ and not for himself. By obedience to the Word of God and daily yielding to the Spirit of God, every believer should mature and be conformed to the image of Christ.
Some may not agree with all of this. As it is, I do, but I don’t think this is a deal breaker for Auburn Church. Let’s read on.
About the Church
We (Auburn Church) believe that the church is the body of Christ, of which Jesus Christ is the head. The members of the church are those who have trusted by faith the finished work of Christ. The purpose of the church is to glorify God by loving Him and by making Him known to the lost world.
This is exactly what Auburn Church IS.
OK Brian, now that we’ve taken a closer look at who Auburn Church really is, I can only hope that your hypothesis about Auburn Church being “worldly” IS TRUE! Because if your definition of “worldly” looks anything like what we’ve discovered, then it’s time to roll Toomer’s Corner. It’s time to celebrate, because the Lord our God and our Savior, THE Christ, I AM, Jesus of Nazareth, is coming back a lot sooner than we thought. Because as you know, He will return once His Word has been spoken to the four corners of this “worldly” place we call Earth.
Your brother in Christ,
Tim
Comment by Tim B. in Atlanta — April 21, 2008 @ 3:07 pm
Tim,
Thanks for your reply. I mentioned this elsewhere already, but I don’t want anyone to get the impression that my problem with North Point is that they are not true Christians. I feel pretty confident that my comments have not come across that way, but I think some people get easily offended, decide not to read the rest of the posts, and draw conclusions based on emotions and not fact… not saying you did, btw
You said, “Does Auburn Church and other North Point Ministry campuses use relevant content to attract Christians and, more importantly non-Christians, whose hearts are being pursued by the Holy Spirit? Absolutely!”
As I stated in one of my comments, my biggest problem was with the video… it was flat out horrible. Your comment is a little different than the video’s in regards to their philosophy of ministry… maybe they should hire you as their video editor
I am familiar with North Point and their ministries. One of my best friends attends North Point (he finally got to meet his pastor the other day when he was at the mall… after attending for many months… nice.) and I grew up in a church with basically the same ministry philosophy and goals.
You said, “You can’t honestly tell me that God cares if we are wearing jeans, a coat and tie, or an AUBIE suit, when we worship Him, can you? He wants a personal relationship with us and whether we are laying in a hospital bed recovering from a car accident, or teeing off on number 1 as the sun breaks the horizon…does it really matter?”
What does this mean?!?! What is your definition of worship? Really, this sounds all nice and warm and “relevant,” but I’m not sure where this comes from. I’m not just saying this against you, btw, but against the countless churches like North Point who say the same things as a justification for their minstry philosophies and actions.
I agree with all the beliefs of North Point. As I said, I’m not doubting their faith, just their philosophy. I think its harmful in many ways, irreverant in others, and unbiblical in most. As far as being “worldly,” when they state in their video that they are trying to be attractive to the world and then show a clips of a rock concert, er, worship service – that’s being worldly and that’s wrong. It’s backwards. It’s ugly. And most importantly, it’s ineffective. And this has nothing to do with worship style, per se, or rock/pop music. It has to do with the church’s identity, the purpose of worship, and what these things are supposed to look like. True wordliness – the good kind – happens in the world, not in the church. Just because a particular church is made up of Christians doesn’t mean that whatever they do on Sunday morning is worship.
Peace
Comment by brianmclain — April 21, 2008 @ 4:17 pm
Hey Brian, thanks for your reply. No worries about your comments, no offense taken.
For the purposes of this discussion I’m going to shorten all references to North Point, Auburn Church, etc. to NPM (North Point Ministries) just for brevity.
I think this sort of discussion is great. Anytime people can get together to discuss different ways to reach people for Christ is a “W” for God. Again, NPM isn’t claiming to have cornered the market on how to do church or how to worship, but I think it’s a difficult argument for one to make when one says the NPM method is “harmful”, “unbiblical”, “irrelevant”, “ugly”, “wrong”, etc. I’m not tracking with you at all on that. In fact, to the contrary, NPM is so relevant its strategic partner churches and overall attendance is growing in number every quarter. But you see the cool thing about NPM is they have never worried or cared about the numbers. The truth is NPM, which started in 1994, has had one goal and one goal only…to grow to 100,000 Small Groups (another name for Bible Study groups). “Ccorporate worship” is great and it’s how most seekers begin to learn about the Bible. But, the truth is NPM understands real life change and real heart change happens in circles, not in rows. Worshiping on Sunday mornings is incredible but God wants us to walk with Him on a daily basis. NPM has something in the neighborhood of 2,000 to 3,000 small groups (with 8 to 12 people in each) that meet each and every week all over the southeast. These are environments where Christians and seekers are studying the Word together and applying it to their daily lives. These are environments where individuals are trusting this intimate group with very private circumstances each is dealing with in their lives and applying God’s Word to work through those circumstances. We can only dream for that this sort of thing becomes a “worldly” standard!
Regarding the video…I’m not sure if you are saying you didn’t like the content, the style, the message, or something all together different, but either way the video you are referring to wasn’t meant for you, per se. It was meant for that segment of the Auburn community that hasn’t found their church home. It’s not meant to pull people away from their current local church. It’s meant to pull people into the local church for the first time. But, NPM is not The Video and it was never meant to be. I go back to my question to you…have you ever attended at any of the campuses? Because I have friends that attend churches all over Atlanta but I can’t claim to know anything about them. I would encourage you to open your mind, and attend…just once. You don’t have to like it, but at least you can experience it first hand. Having said that, it’s not likely the church for you, but it is for many.
Regarding meeting the pastor… “Big churches” aren’t for everyone. I would imagine, like me, you’ve attended college courses (especially those in your first couple years of school) where there were 300 students in the class. You never met the instructor/professor but that didn’t make the message or content invalid. For those that yearn for a personal relationship with his/her pastor in his/her local church, well, NPM isn’t the place for them. Does it mean you can’t have that at NPM? No, a lot of people know Andy on a personal level, but most simply don’t have the need to know him or ANY of the speakers for that matter. Andy will be the first to tell you that he’s a horrible “pastor”. That’s not his gift. In fact, surprisingly, he’s quite the intravert when you are sitting down having a discussion with him. That’s just his personality and there’s nothing wrong with it. But in the corporate setting he’s a terrific communicator, probably one of the best in the country. But, what makes his personality so appealing is you won’t meet anyone more humble than him. He doesn’t need or desire public confirmation or “yes men”. He is completely content with the fact that God is the reason for NPM growth, not any man.
There are many folks on staff that are wonderful “pastors” and they are available to anyone that needs to speak with someone. And for the record, if one wants to “meet the pastor” at NP all you have to do is get involved. There are plenty of opportunities to meet Andy if one makes the effort. But again, it’s not about him it’s about Him. It’s not about Andy, or Louie, or Jeff, or any of the speakers. Don’t get me wrong, they all can bring it!! But they’ll be the first to tell you that it’s not about them. History tells us when it becomes about the pastor, that church has trouble on the horizon. NPM is different and it scares some people…I get that. But the truth is spoken every week, and people are led to Christ every day.
My reference to wearing jeans, a coat and tie, etc. was a direct reference to your comment about attending church in comfortable clothes. My point is it’s not about that. It’s about a one on one personal relationship with our Heavenly Father. All the bows and ribbons our culture tries to wrap around corporate worship is just that…window dressing. It’s not about the building, the lights, the delivery method, the band, or even the speaker. It’s about diving into God’s Word on a daily basis and speaking to Him through prayer and consistent study of the Bible.
You asked, “What is your definition of worship?” My definition of worship is pursuing a consistent relationship with my Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ…period. It’s not a secret formula. It’s speaking to Him through prayer and study. It’s living in a way that is beyond reproach and asking for His grace and forgiveness when I fall short of that every day. Corporate (or group) worship is awesome and can take on many forms (some great, some good, some not so good) but at the end of the day it’s about a one on one. Think about it. Our relationship with our earthly father isn’t about being friends or family to our dad and all of our friends’ dads at the same time. It’s about a relationship with that one person, our father. It’s no different with our Heavenly Father.
Finally, your statement “Just because a particular church is made up of Christians doesn’t mean that whatever they do on Sunday morning is worship.” I agree completely. But, that statement isn’t describing Auburn Church or any of NPM’s churches. In fact, if you experienced it first hand I think you’d agree that the Holy Spirit shows up every week and lives are being transformed and God’s kingdom is expanding. But again, it’s not for everyone.
I’m out.
Comment by Tim B. in Atlanta — April 22, 2008 @ 7:22 am
Tim,
You’re last post was very informative. It’s clear that we have very different understandings of what worship, church, and ministry should look like. Hopefully this doesn’t come across as presumptious or offensive – but rather a humble observation – but while your (and NPM’s) position on these issues is clearly the majority position in the U.S., I find that these positions really have no biblical support. Now, before I go into that, I want to be clear that I do not think the error lies in a group of people trying to subvert the gospel, or are purposefully rejecting scripture in favor of their own desires, but rather misguided views based on a relatively short tradition that can be traced rather easily back to puritan doctrine and practices and developed by American ideals. I have no doubt that the men and women of NPM and other similar ministries are committed Christians desiring to do the right thing… I just think their going about it completely wrong and I think the evangelical church’s inability to impact the culture is the most glaring evidence of this.
Ultimately the issue comes down to worship. I think your definiton is a typical modern definition that finds its foundation in human emotion rather than scripture. Worship is NOT about a one on one relationship with Jesus – that refers more to our personal walk with Christ – our sanctification if you will – while worship is a specific act that occurs on the Lord’s Day. I think your backwards when you said “the truth is NPM understands real life change and real heart change happens in circles, not in rows.” When corporate worship is done right, then this is where real life and heart change occur. Because corporate worship is usually not done right though – as in NPM in my opinion – substitutes must be implemented and usually fall short.
What is worship – specifically New Covenant worship? The Bible points us to the Old Covenant practice of sacrifice as our guide. In the New Covenant Jesus transformed the sacrificial system – actually he fulfilled it – but the structure still remains. While there is plenty of room for creativity, styles, ideas in worship, we are still bound to the structure that God gave to His people: A call to worship, confession, singing, hearing of the Word, preaching of the Word, prayer, and the sacraments. It is through these things that God strengthens His people – a weekly covenant renewal. There’s a lot I could say about this, and we can continue this discussion if you want, but it probably deserves its own post. My main point though is that the Western church has evolved into a strange entity that is based more on tradition and feelings, rather than scripture. For example, most worship music now consists of emotional,”Jesus is my boyfriend” lyrics and styles rather than robust congregational singing of the psalms, hymns and spiritual songs that are full of scripture. Another example is the invitation. A complete invention of man due to the belief that faith only comes through a mature, emotional response requiring a particular moment of commitment.
While you do make comments that Sunday worship is great and awesome, you seem to think that Sunday worship is unimportant, or at least, secondary. I think this is common, but wrong. In fact, while I don’t think there is anything wrong with the idea of small groups, I think they’re abiblical (not unbiblical) and secondary to worship. In fact, I think they are usually harmful in the way they are practiced because they usually replace other important events such as corporate worship, family worship, community service, and even rest. They usually combine people of the same age groups and interests which is the opposite of what the Bible calls us to do.
Your analogy of worship as a relationship with our earthly father is a good example of the unbiblical influence that puritan doctrine and American ideals have had on the church. Without discounting the importance of a personal walk with Christ, the main focus of salvation should be the church. Salvation is not mainly an individual experience – its a corporate one. We are the bride of Christ and God is our father and we are made one in Christ – a community of brothers and sisters. Even practically, as a Christian, it is all about the relationship between us and our father, our friends, and our friend’s fathers. This is the point Jesus made many times.
Finally, your defense of Andy Stanley is admirable but sorely lacking. I have no doubt that he is a humble man and a godly man, but if he is not a good “pastor” then he needs to step down immediately. My feeling though is that – without discounting his love for God or people – he is misled to think that his position should be more like a CEO rather than a pastor, which is common and unfortunate.
I look forward to your response. Peace
Comment by brianmclain — April 24, 2008 @ 4:34 pm